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11/7/06 5:29 PM

Byron

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News Item:
ELECTION 06: Turnout by Christians critical, leaders...

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Hmmmmm. First, it's: the Democrats are corrupt--elect the Republicans! Now, it's: the Republicans are corrupt--elect the Democrats! It's kind of a vicious cycle, but fun to watch.

11/7/06 5:27 PM

Byron

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News Item:
Minnesota Mega-Church Pastor Named Interim NAE...

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Whoopty-doo.

I can't support ecumenicism on the part of the NAE (especially the NCC), but I can prayerfully say: may God's will be done and may His servants in the NAE (whoever they are) who seek to serve Christ in truth and devotion be blessed. I, for one, think Christian believers are often too impressed with the organizations of man, and place too much hope therein.

11/7/06 5:24 PM

Byron

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News Item:
New York Plans to Make Gender Personal Choice

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Hooray! Soon gender, along with marriage and morality itself, will have no real meaning or foundation. This is progress. March on!

11/7/06 5:12 PM

Byron

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News Item:
Newsweek - Morality Tale: A Pastor's Fall From Grace

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What amazes me is all the hullabaloo over Ted Haggard's fall from grace which doesn't even really merit a blip on my radar. God is still Holy. And Christ is still on the Throne. Trust God.

11/7/06 5:02 PM

Byron

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Freewiller: I love this tired, old cliche.

BEEN THERE. DONE THAT. GOT THE T-SHIRT.

Or was it the coffee mug? Or both? Either way, they were taking up space, so I had a garage sale.

11/7/06 4:53 PM

Byron

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OSP, you said:

"I don't know for the life of me why they insist on spending time on a site where the speakers are overwhelmingly reformational in their theology."

I suspect that many of them, with the best of motives, see themselves as missionaries here for the truth. That is, as long as they are around, denying and opposing our error, we remain without excuse for believing lies. And that hopefully, some of us will repent and return to the fold, whatever that is. But, unfortunately, I too was once in their camp, and perfectly happy to boot. I was far happier as an inconsistent Arminian Baptist with milquetoast theology than I've ever been as a Calvinist, and I had far more friends along with it as well. But God gave me something excelling everything I've sacrificed in my defense: the simple truth that Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9) and that "Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever!" (Revelation 7:12, ESV). God Bless you, brother.

Soli Deo Gloria!

11/7/06 4:44 PM

Byron

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OSP: I know you are right, but I am too hard-headed to admit it. I'm still Arminian enough to believe the falsehood that I can convince someone of the truths of God's Word by my abilities alone minus the Holy Spirit. I am constantly proven wrong, so I need to repent.

11/7/06 4:34 PM

Byron

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Here, Freewiller. Here's oodles and oodles of information answering all your questions which you won't read or care about. Perhaps someone else will. -Shrug-

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney/5points.htm
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm
http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/
http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/calvinism.html

I'm not sure what you read before concerning Calvinism, but it obviously didn't do you any good. You can start over with the materials above, if you like. I certainly hope you will.

http://www.the-highway.com/fall_Sproul.html
http://www.the-highway.com/Bavinck_predestination.html
http://www.the-highway.com/ultimate-purpose_Lloyd-Jones.html
(for a good discussion of the Fall)

Freewiller, go ahead and ignore these, too.

11/7/06 4:18 PM

Byron

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No, I am not a hypercalvinist. I linked to an excellent critical article refuting hypercalvinism as defined historically and accurately. I affirm that article and disavow hypercalvinism. It is not my fault that you do not accurately understand my position, or that you fail to seek to do so.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm

By the way, I would be embarrassed to claim I had read extensively on Calvinism if I so poorly grasped and analyzed its basic concepts, as you do, Freewiller. Willful ignorance deserves no sympathy (or further interaction) from me. I believe you can do much better. Perhaps I am wrong. But I can't help but see your attitude as a manifestation of, "my mind is made up! Don't confuse me with the facts." Oh well, bummer.

11/7/06 3:26 PM

Byron

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Freewiller: There are, however, many books and articles available (some of it online even) which handle theological disagreements such as these objectively and charitably, and academically. I have no more good faith in your abilities to continue this discussion in anything even approximating such fairness or charity of intellectual discussion, Freewiller, so I simply bid you good day and will be done with it.

11/7/06 3:25 PM

Byron

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Freewiller: No, I do not believe what you say I do. It is very frustrating to defend one's beliefs, only to be told you don't actually believe in that but instead in a caricature theological set of straw-man beliefs which is dutifully shredded before my very eyes, before I am rudely ordered to recant blasphemous beliefs I never claimed in the first place. I am certainly misunderstood, here, but it does no good for me to continue to defend myself to the likes of you. It is a personal waste of time for me to post links to materials that easily refute your mistaken assumptions that you are either too lazy or unable to read and understand. All of what you accuse cannot be answered adequately in the mortal realm, by my position, I admit. But there are theological questions for whatever doctrinal system one person is that cannot be answered with human wisdom and which are not answered in Holy Writ.

11/7/06 3:09 PM

Byron

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I said:

"Sovereign God governing in supreme Wisdom."

Yamil, you said in response:

"I think every religion in the world can make that statement. This does not draw a distinction between Calvinism and the rest."

No, Yamil, some are polytheistic and some have no supreme God. Many religions might use the exact or similar language to express these absolute concepts, that is true. But if you are a Christian, as I take it you are, then you and I both affirm that it is only the God of the Bible and the Truth of the Holy Bible that can be ultimately vindicated. Blessings in Christ to you, brother.

11/7/06 3:01 PM

Byron

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No, Yamil, that is not true. I believe that God is perfectly Holy and perfectly good. I also believe that the theological system which best expresses those truths is the system of Calvinism, which because it is an imperfect system devised by man, cannot do so perfectly. However, the Bible does reveal God's nature and being perfectly, and is perfectly true, though even the Bible does not reveal all truth (God has reserved much truth for Himself and His own glory, and chosen not to reveal it to mortal man). I merely assert that the theological system of Calvinism is superior to that of Arminianism and especially Pelagianism, which might perhaps be an incorrect assertion. I can, however, sincerely protest to you that my motives in this case are good, even though I cannot prove that. Why is that so hard to understand? If someone here said, I believe my theological system is the most honoring to God, even if it was the heresy of Pelagianism, I would believe them for their motives if they were convincingly sincere, though I would oppose with all hostility any untruth and especially heresies to the best of my understanding and ability based on the Word of God.

11/7/06 2:49 PM

Byron

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Freewiller: the problem of evil and suffering is an age-old theological problem that most likely mortal man will never solve. It is enough for me that God is both good and omnipotent and that evil has both a purpose and end in His eternal plan. I rest with confidence in God's sovereignty.

Your Arminianism (or Pelagianism, I suspect) cannot solve it either, for unless you affirm Open Theism's limited foreknowledge, then you affirm that the same God who perfectly foreknew all the evil of the human race knowingly created the human race anyway, even with the knowledge that the divine will would be impotent according to your system to stop or amend the evil generated by the free will of man. You, sir, have much more to answer for in the defense of God's honor in your faulty theological system than I ever will. And perhaps Open Theism is one of the superlative blasphemies in existence today, along with such errors as hypercalvinism, because they both deny the revealed truth found only in the Holy Bible.

11/7/06 2:41 PM

Byron

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Discerned Believer, I have answered all of your objections, and done so fairly, I hope. I have confessed implicitly that my knowledge is imperfect, along with yours, and every other human living on the planet, and I have also affirmed that it is good and proper to seek the Truth as God has revealed in His Word. You, however, refuse to acknowledge the truth that I have affirmed. I no where have affirmed or asserted the imperfection or unholiness of God, and you know it. You are affirming a lie, sir, and doing so knowingly. You need to repent. Until then, it is true that there is no further need of discussion between us.

11/7/06 2:36 PM

Byron

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God's election I believe is always unto life, and it is merciful and gracious by its very nature because it is completely sovereign on God's part and undeserved on Man's part. God elects who He does because the salvation of the elect will glorify Him more than their damnation, and God passes over and gives to reprobation those He will because their damnation will glorify Him more than their salvation will. God's supreme Wisdom operates in the manner which is the polar opposite of arbitrariness and unreasonableness. God's Wisdom must express itself in superlative Reason, Purpose, and Goodness, though its exact nature of being and operation will forever remain a mystery to the limited understanding and wisdom of humankind. And it is right for God to love Himself supremely over all Creation, preferring Himself and His own glory, because it is the simple and necessary acknowledgment of the Truth. God Himself is Truth.

11/7/06 2:36 PM

Byron

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Freewiller:

God in His supreme Wisdom governs all events so that He will receive the utmost glory, to Whom alone it is due. The depravity of the human race is inherited from the sinful rebellion of Adam in the Garden of Eden, who under no cover of deception but with full knowledge and headstrong rebelliousness defied the Living and Holy God and partook of that which was divinely forbidden. We all inherit our sinful nature from him, the first Adam, and we are all born dead in trespasses and sins, unable and unwilling to please God (proven even in the fact that those around the world who supposedly "seek" God seek an idol to worship instead of the God revealed in the Bible, which is one of the reasons the Gospel must be preached to all so all can hear the truth).

11/7/06 2:13 PM

Byron

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Sure, Freewiller, since you are too lazy to learn and read the linked material I provided earlier to you, I will tell you the sufficient difference between fatalism and Calvinism, and I'll try to do it in 20 words or less. The difference is fatalism believes in impersonal arbitrary fate versus a personal Sovereign God governing in supreme Wisdom. I tried to keep that sentence below 20 words too, so I wouldn't exceed your confessed attention span. And as for defending my God, He already defends Himself in His Word.

11/7/06 2:08 PM

Byron

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Discerned Believer: your question has no relevance to the discussion at hand. I drilled down to the heart of the matter, concerning motives, which you refuse to acknowledge. You have sought to taint my motives, and I have not returned the disfavor. Let's deal with that truth, first, as it is more important and pressing for the time being. As for the other, as I said before, Calvinism is simply a theological system, as is your Arminianism, for that matter, or the Pelgianism of certain others who frequent here. No theological "system" as it were will be 100% accurate, because the men who have devised them have imperfect understanding of the only source of Christian theological knowledge, the Holy Bible. The Bible itself is Holy and inerrant, but the men who study it are not, and mistakes are made trying to harmonize its truths into theological systems that can be understood by the human mind (which every believer does, even implicitly, perhaps without being aware of it). It comes down to who is the better Biblicist, and I believe that it is almost always without exception the Calvinist.

11/7/06 2:00 PM

Byron

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Freewiller:

I have done no such thing. And, if you had bothered to read any of the material I posted contrasting fatalism with Calvinism, for example, I am still naive enough to think you might possibly learn the difference. But I am growing skeptical. A little honest study would cure you of your misconceptions, assuming you have sufficient learning ability to grasp the material, which I know you do. So what is your reason for not learning the truth?

Jesus had a similar conversation with the Jewish leaders that I am having with you.

John 8:19 (KJV)

Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

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