Neil wrote:
Minnow, that doesn't begin to explain. 1st, covetousness is a personal sin, whereas capitalism et al. are social/economic systems in which covetous & non-covetous persons operate. 2nd, are you implying that an alternative is necessarily non-covetous, or are *none of these* non-covetous?

Neil wrote:
Mike, what's unchristian about capitalism? Please explain.

Mike wrote:
I wonder if alien males can be married to several wives. According to the Bible.

17 "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from FAITH to FAITH: as it is written, The just shall LIVE BY FAITH.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became VAIN in their imaginations, and their FOOLISH heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, THEY BECAME FOOLS"

Mike wrote:
You see, I don't hold that faith is a work. But that's just me, I know. Nevertheless, grace and faith are prior to salvation still. If that be salvation by works, it must be by your definition, no?

Hey! How about that!
This is the first time I've agreed with the Roman Catholics. Believing in RC doctrine is just like believing in little green men.

Mike wrote:
Grace and faith both precede salvation, therefore they both precede regeneration. See how easy?

Now lets not encourage folks to try salvation by works.
Let put our confidence in God alone

Phil 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that HE WHICH HATH BEGUN a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"

1Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ"

= See no need for human handiwork.

Eph 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, (MADE ALIVE) who were dead (Means "DEAD") in trespasses and sins"

Only God raises the dead.

*ALL* the glory to God.

Michael Hranek wrote:
I do not agree with Calvinism's order of salvation of regeneration (new birth) before repentance and faith.

Romans 10
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?

Romans 10 - Yes a wonderful chapter about *Israel* and the great difference between the righteousness of the Law and the Righeousness of grace IN Christ. The chapter exposes the error of Israel relying on a self-righteouness. They did not receive nor believe on Christ (and of course His Imputed Righteousness) - Thus they were not saved.

Jim Lincoln wrote:
Minnow, I think I will point out two things, First, there KJV Onlyers who can be considered Catholic Protestants, they accept tradition over even an accurate version of the Scriptures They are like arguing with Catholics. The KJV Ryrie Study Bible, is an excellent aid for people to get at the meaning of the changed words, and other problem areas of the KJV. You don't have to read the comments of the Ryrie if you don't want to, Ah, being English must be the reason you don't use the ASV....

Now I don't mind if you call me heretic. Or say that we grace filled Calvinists have come from the Roman church in the 16th century. Or even call me crazy.....

But Jim - Don't call me "english"

Michael Hranek wrote:
kindly do not missrepresent me as one who would "insist the sinner can overcome sin, to initiate salvation by human volition..."

I apologise if I have "misrepresented" you.

Therefore I assume you will agree with the following....

1] The Lord elected/predestined you before the world began.

2] The Lord called you, by Gospel.

3] Grace and the Holy Spirit came into your heart.

4] Thus you were inwardly called.

5] By this means you were regenerated.

6] *THEN* - By Faith you repented and were converted.

7] At this juncture you were justified by Christ alone.

8] The process of sanctification is now at work on you.

Is this your doctrine Michael?

Michael Hranek wrote:
Sorry, but I just can't "take" Augustine for an example.

I know you are anti-Calvinist, and one of the free will types who insist the sinner can overcome sin, to initiate salvation by human volition. So we will both disagree about history and how it has been recorded. I remember you telling us that you came out of the RCC, and yet I find you're still convinced of the works based version of doctrine. Thus Augustine could write anything he wanted to, so could Calvin and Spurgeon (and me) and you won't agree with our doctrinal position. So as for you "taking" Augustine or understanding the vast difference between his teaching and that of Pelagius, or his pupil Cassion (they were like you free will advocates), we can at least agree to differ.

One for the Christians.

One for the JW's.

One for the Roman Catholics.

Jim Lincoln wrote:
Users of the KJV can be Christians, as can people who prefer a more accurate version of the Bible.

I was brought up on the KJV, moved later to the NIV Then tried the NKJV and finally came home to the KJV, by His grace.
This journey included doing Greek at theol college, and I'm happy now that the Holy Spirit guides me into all truth.

Mike wrote:
We can agree that there were Christians around before the Reformation, right? Even if they weren't Reformed.

Yes there were a few Christians around. Only a Remnant though.

PILUT wrote:
Luther hated the true Church (the anabaptists), and wished them gone.

Faithful (?) Remnant wrote:
There were already "protestants" around long before Luther and the Reformation. Call them what you will---Anabaptists, Hussites, Waldenses,

Anabaptist formed 1521.

Wanna try again FR?
_________

PILUT wrote:
1] How can the Protestant Church be the TRUE church when it came out of Rome?

2] Do you people ever use any deductive reasoning?

3] How could the Church Jesus built be in Rome? It was Rome who was killing them.

4] And It was Luther who could have joined the pre-Rome True Church, but he joined in the hatred of the true Church.

5] You can not be intelectually honest and say that the Church Jesus started was not in existance, (and under persecution) before, during and after Rome.

2] It's your common sense and/or your historic perspective that worries me.

3] Ro 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ."
= Well according to God it can happen.

4] I think you've got your "True churches" mixed up.

Casob wrote:
The "solas" are appealing to the worthless fleshly pride of religious humanity and is a means to draw attention to the elevated status with which they regard themselves. (In My Opinion)