Tithe- The minimum Genesis 14:17-20...but never under compulsion
"Kenny - only 12 apostles - the pastor is not an apostle."
I was using the word 'apostle' in a generic sense. In the churches I am referring to, he would consider himself to be the ONLY apostle. Hence, chief apostle.
Question: since greedy people like to throw out tithing, saying it is OT, does that include offerings?
Malachi said Israel has robbed God in Tithes AND offerings.
Is tithing required? NO - keep your grubby money God gave you breath and health to get - he doesn't need it.
So what did Jesus do with tithing? The same thing he did with all of the law - REQUIRE MORE!
EVERYTHING belongs to God!
And if you have a Church you don't want to give to - find another one.
It usually comes down to simple greed and LACK OF FAITH.
Jesus said "give" and it shall be given unto you...
This word GIVE doesn't refer to money. It applies to EVERYTHING.
Kenny - only 12 apostles - the pastor is not an apostle.
There are churches that do that very thing now. The problem is, in all of them that I know of, the chief apostle (the pastor) keeps the proceeds for himself and lives like royalty.
Acts 3:11" in the porch that is called Solomon's"
Acts 4:34 "Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, (35) And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need."
However, I do believe we should give as we feel led by the Holy Spirit to do so. The Lord loves a cheerful giver, one that does not feel obligated but rather gives because they want to.
This topic is one reason I tend to hate these "money preachers"... that say the reason we don't have is because we didn't plant a large enough seed with their "ministry"... God gives us based on our needs & blesses those who have been good stewards with what they have.
To me it has been an interesting observation that Rick Warren, one of the foremost false teachers of today, makes finacially supporting his Purpose Driven (aka Apostate) Church a hugely important requirement for his members. You might say one has to pay to be Purpose Driven, after all those who are leading the Purpose Driven, Seeker Sensitive, Ecumenical, Apostate Mega Churches into destruction have to get a lot of money to pay for the entertain the goats with state of the art sound systems and multimedia special guest speakers and let's not forget special celebrity guest into hell from somewhere.
In contrast what a joy it is for a child of God to beable to give to those who would actually be laborers in the harvest and use what is given to preach the gospel and to teach and minister to those who are truly needy.
Since tithing is an OT doctrine, when was it done away with? Didn't it predate the Mosaic Law?
kenny wrote:I understand exactly what you are saying and you are 100% correct. The problem is, this is the best church I have found and I have visited A LOT of churches. Most if not all of them have these same problems and worse.
Mike wrote:I don't kn_w.
One possible explanation is faulty keyboards. It would seem more sensible however, to use a zero ("0") in place of an "o". That is, write "G0d" or "L0rd". Or even use the smilies available, like: L rd. Problem is, these people tend to use "o's" in other places, ruling this out.
I'm sure it's not important, but I am very curi_us.
Australia wrote:Who is G_D?
asher wrote:...G_D...
Another argument comes from Mathhew ch23 where Jesus {in speaking of the Pharisees tithing but omitting the weightier matters of the law} says this ought ye to have done and not left the other undone. A simple look at the context shows this does not put tithing onto the christian. In verse one Jesus says the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses. All they say, do. Clearly this is a command to Jews under the law and belongs to those under the law. Not to christians.
In the OT the tithe was the ONLY tax!
If we had the option of giving time instead of $ would the church accept it?
Despite being in a salaried post I am just keeping my bank balance in the black. Utility bills, insurance and government taxes are going up all the time. In the UK we work for the Government from 1 January until 1st June. Only after that do we start to earn for ourselves (http://www.adamsmith.org/tax/Tax%20Freedom%20Day/History.html)
Does this seem right to you?
Paul was a tent-maker/preacher who I don't believe ever charged expenses.
What running costs did the primitive church have? Looking after the orphans and widows - have we not handed that over to the state?
In my experience most churches are seeking government handouts to take back some of this work! To "qualify" for charitable status we need a social outreach programme.
Tithing is Old Covenant. As a NT believer I am responsible for how I spend all 100% of my salary NOT 10%.
Church I am in now has ~25 households and a full time Pastor who cannot visit them on an annual basis. NT Paul/Saul was often part time (tent making)but you bet he would have visited us at least once in 12 months if he was my Pastor!
I understand exactly what you are saying and you are 100% correct. The problem is, this is the best church I have found and I have visited A LOT of churches. Most if not all of them have these same problems and worse. Some of the bigger ones are unbelievable.
In my opinion, the issue actually is tithing (or giving at all) because the money is being mismanaged. Like most modern pastors, the one Biblical principal that he doesn't consider to be legalism is tithing and I know for a fact that he keeps close records of who gives what.
The pastor is a really good Bible teacher and many of the people there (about 60 or so on Sunday) are true Christians and nice people. There is much that I like about the church.
I don't believe the New Testament teaches tithing for believers (I do believe in GIVING-more than 10% if possible) but I also believe the Lord would have me as a steward to be a responsible giver. I don't see how anyone can do that in most churches in 2007. I'm just offering my church as an example.
I am seriously considering getting together with some friends and starting a new fellowship (maybe with no paid staff).
