DJC49 wrote:
Mike --
Whosoever still means whosoever......we don't get to look behind the veil to see who exactly who (sic) the whosoevers are.

Whosoever means "anyone" ... so to rephrase your comment...

"..we don't get to look behind the veil to see who exactly ...the anyones are" - does this make sense to anyone?

Ha!

Anyone mean anyone- not matter which dictionary you use.

DJC49 wrote:
Faith never is a work; but if it's not a SAVING faith gifted of the Holy Spirit by grace, it may as well be a "work"

suspicion wrote:
No not convinced Calv. U.
This is just another attempt to bring out the RCC/Arminian salvation by human (input) works connection to begin the process.
Saving Faith is the work of God the Holy Spirit and is all of a Gift from God.
The sinner in his natural estate contributes nothing towards salvation, nor does he cooperate with the Trinity to achieve this end. The merits of Christ being totally sufficient.
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"
"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Lets not borrow from the domain of sin, dead in sins wretched estate in order to rob God!
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
*ALL* of Grace. ONLY of Grace!

rogerant wrote:
Point taken CU, I apologize profusely. I have gone back and checked your posts and I have misquoted and misunderstood your post.
I ask for your foregiveness

rogerant wrote:
I will post it for Lurker. If you will referrence back to 02/02/09 you made numerous posts to the ability of the unregenerated human faculty to be able to believe the gospel apart from supernatural influences.

I made one post on the 2/2/09 and it had nothing to do with the subject of faith being a gift!

Do you just enjoy making it all up?

Rather than refer me to a post, quote my words where I said that man can believe without help from the Holy Spirit. What I have been arguing against is that faith is a new faculty, or a new ability that man did not possess before. I have never disputed that the direction of this ability is changed by the Holy Spirit in conversion so that it can be directed towards God.

I think you really need a shot of honesty and the ability to read!

DJC49

Lurker wrote:
Oh, but I do get your point quite clearly for I've heard it many times before. 'Since there is no verse in scripture that specifically states "faith is a gift" then the only reasonable conclusion one can reach is faith emanates from the logical human mind.'
This teaching, imo, is among the greatest issues facing the church in this age.... with a heart dead in trespass and sin one can believe unto righteousness and confess Jesus is Lord (Rom 10:10) contrary to Paul's words "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Cor 12:3) Of his own volition one has the innate power to become just before a righteous and holy God.
The last word is yours as the discussion has moved into another direction.

DJC49 wrote:
Perhaps, after I thoroughly schooled you -- from Scripture -- about Man's responsibility from his beginning in Genesis, you couldn't come up with a better reply than what you afford us above. Too bad.
BTW, it's "CAPISCE" and NOT "CAPICHE"
Capisce?

"Capisce is the formal spelling of the word.

Common alternative spellings are capice, capicé, capiche, capeesh, capisch, capishe and coppish.

It derives from the Italian word capire "to understand" and from Latin capere "to grasp, seize".

[URL=http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Capiche]]]Wiktionary[/URL]

[URL=http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=capiche]]]Online Etymology Dictionary[/URL]

DJC49 wrote:
Yada Yada Yada...

You don't know this stuff, *Calvinist Understanding*???
Hmm.
_____
N.B. Sometimes it's instructive to spell it: response ability.

Candle Lit

rogerant wrote:
I am sure that these were the words (ableit in german) that Klara Hitler uttered when the cute little Adolph was born!

rogerant wrote:
That is right. God does not DELIGHT and does not ENJOY killing the wicked. He is not a wicked child who likes to disects rats for fun with his friends....

He would have the gospel preached to them saying HE HAS NO DELIGHT IN THEIR DEATH even though he had determined to damn them before it was even preached to them! - Give them a taste of something that they could never enjoy because he had already determined their end before they were even born.

What a swell gospel.

Roge writes "...he is not a wicked child who likes to disect rats for fun.."

DJC49 wrote:
....But Adam's sin didn't change one iota man's responsibility. This is why God is still able to give commands (The Law) to sinful man which he can NOT possibly keep.

Mike wrote:
He loved them enough to send his only begotten Son...
They buy their own tickets to hell by rejection of that love, their only hope. That's why they are accountable.

You might as well speak to a brick wall. These guys are Hypers who do not believe that God has any kind of love to the "reprobate", but that He is perfectly consistent to command us to love our enemies! As John UK said, we must outdo God to please him!!

Lurker wrote:
Deu 29:4...
Eze 36:26....But hey, what's an inconvenient scripture or two when all men have faith.... right?
2Th 3:2 ...

Or not.

Your long suit.

You just do not seem to get the point. None of the verses you posted say anything about faith being a gift! The verses speak of a change at conversion, which change is not under dispute.

As for 2Thess 3.2- Do you suppose for one minute that the apostle Paul is telling us that fallen men simply cannot believe or trust in anything? Which would be quite preposterous and any sane man would dismiss as absurd. Or is he talking here about "saving faith" viz. faith towards God?

John UK, Michael Hranek, Mike NY

pew view wrote:
.... "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
In this verse we see the alternative religion of (uncircumcised, ie man in his natural estate) man applying his teachings instead of the Scripture doctrine as taught by the Holy Spirit. Thus they APPEAR TO "resist" the Spirit by their totally depraved human condition.....

John UK wrote:
....This is the point I was making: "There is that in our sinful hearts, which always resists the Holy Ghost". MH
By nature we resist God, the gospel, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
....

Just curious..

John UK wrote:
..And it was not I who wrote the commentary following, but the prince of commentators, Matthew Henry. ....

Lurker wrote:
This statement renders the following scripture null and void...
....Good day gentlemen.

Does man have an ability to love? Yes he does. Is love also a spiritual fruit? Yes it is.

Can man believe and trust in the ordinary affairs of life? Yes he can. Is faith also a spiritual fruit? Yes it is.

Can man know joy in the ordinary affairs of this life? Yes he can. Is joy also a spiritual fruit? Yes it is.

Have you known any individual who has displayed longsuffering - a patient bearing under the most trying circumstances? I have known many, and they were not even Christians. Is longsuffering also a spiritual fruit? Yes it is etc..

If you are saying that Man since the fall has misdirected faculties and that once renewed these are once again directed to the right object, then you have no quarrel from me. If you are trying to make out that God has to supply new ears, new eyes, a new brain, a new will, a new ability to believe and trust, new emotions etc.. then you had better demonstrate this by scripture and not fall on the usual philosophical approach.

Lurker wrote:
What form of logic did you use to make the first statement above for you sure didn't use scripture?
Here is some scripture for you...
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Atheists deny God and God is love. By your form of logic they are gods because they possess the ability to love others and fulfill the Law of Moses. If you disagree then your logic is faulty. And so is the case with your perception of faith. Faith, which justifies sinners in the sight of a Holy God (Father) comes from the Word (Son) through hearing. Your kind of faith an atheist possesses.

Since you are the ones claiming that it is, the onus is on you to prove it

Michael Hranek wrote:
... I believe John UK has accurately observed modern day "Calvinism" is quite unlike the Calvinism of Spurgeon and if the modern day "Calvinists" were anything like this man of God I won't be in "debate" with them and I believe you would understand I'd simply not be saying (praying) anything like:
O that they would love Jesus Christ over John Calvin. ...

I could not agree more.

In fact if we had the likes of him on these forums we would all be speaking the Lord's praises and there would be real biblical education -- heart, mind and soul -- instead of the arid cranial christianity of some here.

Michael Hranek wrote:
As encouragement, not criticism, for us and others who so appreciate the Lord Jesus Christ for saving ones like us. Let' us love the Lord supremely and O for grace to love Him more.

Amen, and Amen.

pew view wrote:
I assume the illumination you receive in your religion emanates from the same human source as your faith does?

Was that a quiet admission that you got the definition wrong?

Spiritual illumination is not an existing human faculty, unlike the ability to believe and trust. My Bible teaches me that illumination is an activity of the Holy Spirit.

Michael Hranek wrote:
Calvinist Understanding
This should give you some more space. I believe I'd like to consider what you would say.
Thanks

I think what I am about to write will probably be reported as abuse and removed by one of the moderators.. but here goes - I have experiened first hand "Reformed Calvinism" and what is very clear is that they love to study and debate the minutiae of doctrine, using human logic. What they are short on is real Bible study and action- our Lord said, if you love me obey my commandments. The last command he left was the great commission. The majority do nothing by way of seeking sinners. They will leave it to their ministers. Even the prayer meetings I attended were so poorly attended.. nothing could move the people to come to prayer. Hence the reason why to their minds they are all theological experts, and feel quite justified on frowning on other groups who study the Bible but deny their system of theology! This is confirmed by other friends who are/have attended other "Reformed Calvinistic" churches.

Sounds like John UK has had similar experiences.

Pew view