I already know. They say you can't lose it. They are wrong.

I'm more interested in what the Bible teaches, not somebody's opinion 1500 years later. And I've already studied up on what the early church, first 300 years taught.

There was no debate about losing your salvation. The only debate was whether once lost it could ever be gotten back.

Exactly. It's Bible.

But the land of Antinomianism, which is the very, very, VERY fanciful, mythical, make-believe Wonderful World of Disneyland full of pixie dust and sugar plum fairies -- which is where YOU live -- is NOT Bible. It's fables, myths, filthy dreaming, and a damnable heresy.

Then they aren't Arminians, Peter. I think you are describing New Age Antinomian Baptists like DB, JD and Yamil.

Arminians believe they can lose their salvation. Period. Anybody who says otherwise is making up their own definitions -- like Dave Hunt who took words of Jacob Arminius and twisted them to try to make him agree with his Antinomian heresies.

Yamil, JD and DB would go on for weeks insisting that salvation cannot be lost under any circumstances.

In that regard they are Antinomian, not Arminian.

The main difference between Arminian and Calvinist is accepting or rejecting free will. New Age Antinomian Baptists who believe they cannot lose their salvation are Fatalist in their beliefs, as much or more than the Calvinists, when it comes to keeping their salvation.

Jacob Arminius did not believe in Once Saved Always Saved, nor a pretrib rapture, nor dispensationalism, nor any of the other New Age heresies that Yamil and JD and DB believe.

Changed like Care Bears go around sprinkling happy dust on people?

No. We still have an Old Man who we must crucify. We must do the reckoning as dead to sin and alive to Christ. The new creature in Christ can wither on the vine, and the Old Man can triumph. A new believer has a choice to go back to the old way, or to walk in the new as an overcomer. Whoever gives up to the Old Man, fails to crucify him, will die in his sins and go to Hell.

God doesn't force us. We are the ones to do the walking, the choosing. This is not something we can put on God, say that if we're still a rotton sinner it must mean we were never saved.

Maybe we were really saved at one time, but spurned God, ignored, grieved and quenched his Spirit and just dried up on the vine.

To you "saved" means a permanent state that can never change.

To me, "saved" means present forgiveness and atoning of sins PAST by the blood of Jesus, restoring relationship with God. Such relationship is subject to being broken in many ways, as spelled out in hundreds of Bible verses, (which I can post a partial list if you want.)

Unless we walk in the Spirit, keep repenting when we fail, we will grieve the Spirit away.

If we "do despite to" or insult the Holy Spirit, we seriously and actively sin.

If we "grieve" the Holy Spirit we live in constant sin.

If we "quench" the Spirit, we ignore the Holy Spirit's leading, fail to listen and obey.

It's possible to quench, grieve or insult the Holy Spirit away, to become dry and die in our sins, as in the parable of the five virgins. It's also possible to repent and be restored also, as the Prodigal Son.

from the volumes:

Jacobus Arminius, The Works of James Arminius, trans. James and William Nichols

"If David had died in the very moment in which he had sinned against Uriah by adultery and murder, he would have been condemned to death eternal. vol. 2, page 725

"As regards the opinions of the Fathers, you doubtless know that almost all antiquity is of that judgment, that believers may fall away and perish." Vol 3 pp. 455

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I checked out this information on Dan Corner's website where he responds to Antinomian Dave Hunt, who is trying to claim Arminius has identical theology with Hunt. Hunt preaches Once Saved Always Saved. See this long article with lots more quotes:

Billy Graham is an Antinomian, a devil-worshipping Freemason, a controlled agent of the Illuminati to lead multitudes into complacency and damnation of their souls.

It is impossible to be Arminian and Antinomian at the same time.

That's what you say. That's not what the Bible says.

Parable of the Sower, first three examples lost their salvation. First example lost it because he believed lies (heresies) and the faith was destroyed. Second example stopped believing when it was not convenient or comfortable to do so. Third example got hung up in the world and his faith just died.

Parable of the 10 virgins, shows 5 of the betrothed virgins had "gone dry" of the Holy Spirit and were shut out of the marriage feast. Romans 8 says you must die with the Holy Spirit to be raised to Heaven.

Parable of the lazy servant. Was thrown into Hell.

Parable of unjust servant. Also went to Hell.

Teaching of the debtor who would not forgive. That which he had been previously forgiven was retracted and he was punished double.

The Bible says when we are saved, we are saved from PAST sins. We need to be saved from present and future sins the same as past ones.

If you are saved at this instant and die you will go to Heaven. But if it is 10 years later and you have grieved away the Holy Spirit and you die, you will die in your sins and go to Hell.

Eternal life is for those who are not dry when they die (read Romans 8).

If it could be taken back, would it be a gift?

Yes it would still be a gift even if it was taken back, especially if the gift was given with conditions -- which the Bible tells of many conditions, explains them from all different angles, so we cannot help but get the picture.

The gift was given of eternal life on condition of eternal faith manifested by works, dying to self, living to God, walking in the Spirit.

No faith, no eternal life.

Faith without works is dead. Dead faith is worse than no faith at all.

That's Bible.

DB, if you disagree with what I'm saying here, then how is it you claim living the moral law is "applicable" to our life?

Salvation can be lost. When you are saved and given a new nature, you still have an old nature, the "Old Man." Bible commands you to RECKEN yourself dead to sin, alive to God. To crucify the flesh. If you don't, if you do not walk in the Spirit, you will grieve, quench and insult the Holy Spirit away.

The Holy Spirit is the seal. Long as you hve the seal, nothing can snatch you uot of God's hand. But if you lose the Holy Spirit, as five of the 10 betrothed virgins did, you will die dry as they were, and you will go to Hell.

I'm telling you, these churches are lying about this Eternal Security stuff. It's ear tickling lies that is taking people right into Hell. It is not what the Bible teaches.

Read Dan Corner online. The Bible does not teach eternal security. Just the opposite. Face the truth.

These teachings are out of the pits of hell in order to deceive you and take you to Hell, but God says: Do not be deceived. Bible lists many sins that will send people straight to Hell, repeats Do Not Be Deceived.

Crusading Antinomians are not saved and they lead others into Hell with them. They are fatalists. They think their body is sinful and there's nothing they can do about it, but they are still pure in their spirits, that God doesn't care what they do, that God is pulling all the strings anyway, and since God causes all the evil in the world anyway why worry about personal sin. They think all their sins are all "paid for," that Jesus was already punished for their sins, and why worry about committing sins that have already been paid for. They believe no matter what they do, they can never, ever lose their salvation -- that David was a murderer and adulterer, blah, blah, so what the hey.

You are labeling the Antinomians as Arminians.

So get your name tags right, okay?

Walk in the Spirit and we won't fulfil the lusts of the flesh, says Bible. We don't know exactly when we cross over the line, but if we're out of fellowship with God that's a good indication. If we're dry, that means we've lost the Holy Spirit. If our spirit doesn't bear witness, that means we're dry.

Obviously we can go dry. The Bible says so. Read the Parable of the 10 Virgins. Why did Jesus tell that story? To warn us so we would not go dry. So listen. Don't be wilfully blind and deaf. Listen. It's plain that those virgins, betrothed to the bridegroom, went dry. It's not that they couldn't have filled their lamps, but they didn't fill them and ran out of time.

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All I asked you to do was answer a simple question of how the moral law or holiness "applied" to daily life -- as you said.

Salvation is a free gift with CONDITIONS. If God forgives you and you fail to forgive your neighbor, God will take back His forgiveness. Remember?

God tells us the conditions throughout the Bible, but we seem to think they apply to everybody but us.

If you want to play dumb and think of your salvation like a box of valentine candy somebody gave you, God didn't say that, and you're not reading your Bible correctly.

Jesus died to make a way for our sins to be forgiven, to restore fellowship with God. We're expected to use the power He gives to be good stewards, good servants, to bear much fruit. We aren't to quench and grieve the Holy Spirit, to go dry.

We're commanded and expected to die to self and live to God, to fulfil the first commandment to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and our neighbor as ourself.

If you are not a Christian, if you only think you are a Christian, then we are not "related" in any way at all.

So answer my questions. If you are an antinomian, you are not a Christian, no matter what your sex is. Rather you are a preacher of damnable heresies, heresies which will lead all those who believe them to Hell, and if you believe them yourself and act on them you will go to Hell yourself.

So convince me that you are not an antinomian gnostic heretic who believes you are saved in your sins, not from your sins. Convince me that God is looking to take a bunch of sinners to live with him in Heaven, or as somebody else described it "snow covered dung."

If you refer to obedience to the commands of our Lord ro his disciples in their walk, then it is applicable."

Applicable. Applicable.

I still want to know what you mean by this. Can you explain yourself.

I doubt you can or will even try.

Bible says DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Bible says people who commit wicked sins, who are not overcomers, will NOT GO TO HEAVEN.

So you don't see it that way I know. You think being "saved" means having a moment of faith where you "receive" Jesus and that anything you do or don't do after that has absolutely nothing to do with whether you will or will not go to Heaven.

So how is it as you say "applicable" to obey the moral law? For what purpose, if not for salvation? For crowns only as I asked you?

Can you give a plain answer?

Applicable? I agaree that the moral law is "applicable." But since that is rather a vague word, can you clarify what you mean? In what way is the moral law "applicable?" Based on your previous posts, I'm certain you wouldn't say it's "applicable" to salvation.

To how many crowns you get to stack on your head? What's the incentive to not sin? If you are tempted like all get-out, why not just go ahead and sin? So what if you lose a crown or two?

Or applicable because the Bible says "be sure your sin will find you out? and it's just not SMART to sin?

But will the Independent New Age Baptist church tell their people DO NOT BE DECEIVED, and warn them, agree with what the Bible SAYS, that they WILL GO TO HELL if they are not overcomers, do not walk in the Spirit and die to self and live to God?