Romans 11 NEVER states that the "blindness in part" will eventually be lifted. Rather, this "blindness in part" WILL REMAIN up until "the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." And THAT'S how "all" Israel shall be saved! Throughout Romans 11, Paul is making the case that the Jews have not been ENTIRELY cast away "for the gifts and calling of God are without repentence." IOW, from the inception of the Church at Pentecost until the very LAST Day when Christ returns in glory and FINAL Judgement, it will be a REMNANT of the Jews who will be saved.

Remember: there is NEITHER Jew nor Greek, the middle wall of partition has been broken down, there is ONE faith, people, baptism, and Saviour for ALL.

As far as Jeremiah 30-31 goes, JHVH was ALWAYS specifically addressing His People -- THE REMNANT -- while the rest of the Jewish nation (the majority) were "allowed" to eavesdrop & read His love letters to Her. Most of the Jewish nation down through the OT "went along for the ride." Sound familiar? God makes this point clear, at times, when He addresses the Jews as both "Jacob & Israel" all in the same breath. Look at Jer 31:7 - "save THY PEOPLE, THE REMNANT OF ISRAEL."

Tony Lopez-Cisneros wrote:
"The Tine [sic] Is Coming

Natural Man: I know -- you've returned for the rent.

Saint GK: I've got "Good News!"

NM: GREAT! You mean that you've finally found out how I can get saved in THIS Dispensation? It's about time! I was starting to worry since there's only 2 more years to go before Satan is "loosed a little season" and I'm deceived into rebelling against Jerusalem ... and become one of those rebels who come to kick your GLORIFIED ...

SGK: Tut-tut! Fat chance! I'm INDESTRUCTIBLE!

NM: Yeah, I KNOW that now, but .. when you're deceived ..

SGK: Okay. Here it is. In THIS Dispensation, all you have to do in order to get saved is keep the Festivals, do lots of good works, offer up the SIN offering, and live by the Sermon on the Mount!

NM: What about having faith?

SGK: That's ancient history! Look, .. I don't make the rules, I just "rule and reign". I got this "Good News" straight from Jerusalem and they said that it's "BACK TO OBSERVING THE TYPES AND SHADOWS of the OT." Back to the: "Gospel of the Kingdom." So, if you wanna "get saved" ..

NM: Okay, okay .. where are my phylacteries?

SGK: Have fun keeping the LAW! C'ya! (disappears by walking through an outer wall)

Candle Lit wrote:
It would have been absurd to think about the first rebellion in the Garden of Eden where no sin had EVER taken place, so your reasoning just isn't convincing

So with ALL these FACTS in their learning, they STILL turn around and rebel!?

Imagine living in the Millennium. Everything is perfect.
Everything is peaceable.
Babies are even playing with cobras. Lions are having tea with Thompson's gazelles and wildabeests.
Christ is on the throne in Jerusalem and millions upon millions of His saints are administering throughout the earth in GLORIFIED, INDESTRUCTIBLE bodies. (And the mere humans who inhabit the Millennial Kingdom experientially KNOW about these glorified saints)

The BIBLE is still around.
Most of the talk in the Millennium is godly and Biblical and things have NEVER been better on earth since the Fall of Adam.

But something strange happens.
Something strange happens to the LAST generation of men in the Millennium. After hearing ALL about the things in Scripture, after living under such glorious conditions in the Millennium, after SEEING that ALL things had been fulfilled according to pre-trib/pre-mill Dispyism, after KNOWING EXACTLY what is predicted to happen at the END of 1000 years since Christ's coming to Jerusalem, this LAST generation of billions now turns in rebellion -- knowing their fate -- while reading Rev 20:7-9 in their Scofield Reference Bibles!!!

Even though Jesus asserted that NO MAN knows when He will return in glory, ***ALL MEN*** who live after the "rapture" will be able to calculate precisely His 2nd (or is it His 3rd?) Advent!
[Ergo, Jesus lied]

Date-setting for prophecy fulfillment WILL BE A SNAP! There will be NO MORE GUESSWORK involved. Guys like Edgar Whisenant, Hal Lindsay, and Harold Camping will no longer be needed ... neither will their books.

Consider this:
For post-rapture man, the Rapture will be a DATEABLE event, marked on the calendar, set in history. From this DATE, and after looking into their Scofield Reference Bibles, they will KNOW WITH CERTAINTY when the so-called "peace treaty" between Israel and the Antichrist will be broken, and WHEN CHRIST WILL RETURN in Glory (7 years later). How convenient!

Not only this, but those who live in the Millennium will know with CERTAINTY that 1000 years after Christ came to reign on earth, there will be a HUGE rebellion. This future rebellion will probably be talked about throughout the Millennium, but those billions who participate in it will somehow be UNAWARE what they are involved with!

GK wrote:
wonder who's going to be next to rehash the John Darby myth?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism
http://www.theologicalstudies.org/dispen.html
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Dispensationalism/
http://answers.org/theology/dispensationalism.html
http://home.flash.net/~thinkman/articles/dispen.htm
http://www.theocracywatch.org/christian_zionism_dispensationalism.htm

These (and many, many, many others) AGREE that J.N. Darby was indeed the "Founding Father" of Modern-day PRE-TRIBULATIONAL/PRE-MILLENNIAL DISPENSATIONALISM! It was NOT on the scene prior to 1830!

BEFORE the writings of J.N. Darby, there was NO conception whatsoever of a "secret rapture" which preceded the Great Tribulation and Millennium. This "secret rapture" element was the centerpiece and hallmark of Darby-Scofield-Chafer-Ryrie Dispensationalism endtime scheme.

Yes, there WERE previous proponents of Bible Dispensations, and there is no argument that pre-millennialism was nothing new as it had its roots in the VERY early church.

GK wrote:
John-we're only grafted into the olive tree
http://www.out-of-zion.com/Olive%20Tree.htm

It's ONE tree!

Mike wrote:
Seal: So you're are saying prior to Jesus setting his seal of authority on Satan, he wasn't already under it? Hmm

And maybe this has escaped your notice:
Rev 4:1 "I looked"
Rev 5:1,2 "And I saw"
Rev 5:11 "And I beheld"
Rev 6:1,2 "And I saw"
Rev 6:12 "And I beheld"
Rev 7:1 "I saw"
etc., etc. etc., etc....

As a matter of fact, John states some 37 times that what he is writing about are visions that HE SAW ... and another 7 times he writes that he "beheld." On top of that, another 27 times John writes: "I heard!"

This is NOT narrative.
This is NOT historical, chronology being communicated.
This is NOT didactic material.

It's VISIONS!
And as VISIONS, it is communicated and expressed in metaphorical, pictoral, SYMBOLIC, apocalyptic language!

You Dispies need to learn that BEFORE you accuse others of making "allegories"

GK wrote:
case closed

First of all, the text does NOT say that Satan was "BOUND with a great chain!" The KJV reads: "AND I SAW an angel come down from heaven ... a great chain in his hand"
IOW, Satan was put on a leash!
There's NOTHING in the text about totally incapacitating Satan
Next:
The text does NOT say that Satan was "sealed for a thousand years." The KJV reads:
"set a seal UPON him"
That's a SIGN of sovereign authority placed on Satan by Christ.

You Dispies need to realize that all this stuff is apocalyptic language not to be taken in a wooden, literal sense. On top of that, John the apostle is attempting to write about VISIONS which he had seen (Rev 4-22). Have you ever tried telling a friend about some wild dream you had the night before? Dreams and visions are in symbolic terms to begin with!

And it's obvious that you have NOT been paying attention to what I have written concerning the EXTENT of this "binding of Satan" I'll repeat it (in part):

What does this binding involve? -- (v.3) the deceiving of the nations (not individuals) The power of Satan was broken IN PART by the setting up of the Gospel Kingdom in the world. IOW, the power of Satan is NOT fully curtailed. Satan is "bound," he's restricted, he's "put on a chain." Jesus sets a "seal" upon him which is a sign of sovereign control. It's NOT as if Satan is hermetically sealed up so as to be totally without any influence upon the world!

"Binding" is related ONLY to Satan's ability to totally DECEIVE THE NATIONS.
Satan can NOT prevent the Gospel from spreading! [Compare Acts 14:16]
Satan can NOT gather ALL the enemies of Christ together to attack the Church!
_

Is there evidence from the SCRIPTURES that Satan was indeed bound at the time of Christ? Matt 12:22-29 and Luke 10:17-18 and John 12:31,32 and Col 2:14,15

"Binding" is related ONLY to Satan's ability to totally deceive the nations.
Satan can NOT prevent the Gospel from spreading! [Compare Acts 14:16]
Satan can NOT gather ALL the enemies of Christ together to attack the Church!

__

*GK* --

The Roman Catholic Church also holds to the Doctrines of:
The Trinity
The Hypostatic Union of Christ
The Bodily Resurrection of the dead
The eternal nature of hell

This SAME "binding" event had repercussions in heaven and is spoken of in Rev 12:7-11 as the "war in heaven."

"And the great dragon WAS CAST OUT, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world" [Rev 12:9]

There is an allusion to this "war" in Luke 10:18 -- "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning FALL FROM HEAVEN."
Also see John 12:31 -- "NOW is the judgement of this world: NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Col 2:15 -- "And HAVING SPOILED principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

Satan, NOW being chained, is LIMITED in what he can do. He can no longer deceive all nations in the way he did prior to Christ when the pagan world was utterly under the sway of Satan. Only Israel was protected with the TRUTH.

If the Gospel can go into all nations, the devil MUST BE BOUND:
[Matt 12:29]
"Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first BIND THE STRONG MAN? and then he will spoil his house."

According to Dispyism, The Church has its resurrection at the "Rapture"

But what about those who are converted and are martyred/die DURING the 7-year Tribulation? When (according to Scripture) is THEIR bodily resurrection? Is it at the END of the Trib? If not, then are these "Trib saints" returning with Christ at Rev 19:14 WITHOUT glorified bodies? Whenever their resurrection occurs, it will be the SECOND resurrection of the just!

Then we have those saints who live, believe, and die DURING the 1000-year Millennium. When exactly is THEIR bodily resurrection? Or do they never die? Well, whenever their resurrection happens, it will be the THIRD resurrection of the just!

Scripture does NOT speak of 3 resurrections of the just; IT SPEAKS OF ONE!

"and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY!"
Resurrection & Judgement is on THE LAST DAY!
See John 6:40,44,54 and especially John 12:48!

As He has said:
"If any man desire to be first, the same shall be LAST of all, and SERVANT OF ALL." [Mark 9:35]

The paradox is this: when a Christian serves & suffers he is actually ruling & reigning spiritually with Christ!

· when you speak truth
· when you share the Gospel
· when you love others in any of its various manifest ways
· when you are patient with others
· when you obey any of His commands
· when you worship the Lord
· whenever you exhibit some form of Christ-likeness ...
YOU are then ruling and reigning with Christ NOW! Why can this be said? Because living in the Truth and doing the Truth is bringing salt & light into the world, i.e., ruling and reigning over error and darkness.

Most of us still hold to a "worldly" concept of what it means to rule & reign with Christ -- as if it were some kind of lording it over others. It is NOT!

These things aren't merely metaphorical, but rather, they are spiritual REALITIES! GREAT and profound truths of the Christian faith. Worth meditating upon.

And I beg to differ with you ...
Your "new birth" was/is definitely the first resurrection! It's this very resurrection -- this new birth -- which Rev 20:6 is speaking about!

footnote:
Pre-trib/pre-mill Dispyism has unfortunately made a fantastic mishmash of Scripture robbing Christians of valuable spiritual truths and realities by throwing many of them into the future. Example: "ruling and reigning with Christ." THIS reality is PRESENT and NOT just something for the post-trib 1000-year Millennium!
_

*TL-C* --

Is it salvific to hold to or believe the LITERAL interpretation of The NAS Holy Bible-Scriptures? Just curious.

And can someone be Genuinely Saved And NASB-Biblically & Holy-Spiritually "Born-Again"?

There was NO innuendo whatsoever, you merely missed the thrust of my question to TL-C (just as he did himself). I wanted to know if it was the 1st resurrection ... and NOT if it was a BODILY resurrection. So, you missed it. NO "Big deal."

And if you think that your resurrection "in Christ" as mentioned in Eph 2:6 & Col 3:1 is something ONLY metaphorical, I suggest you take your pick of one of [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?keyword=raised%20with%20Christ&entiresite=true]]]THESE SA Sermons[/URL], give a listen, and get back with me. BTW, is your justification; righteousness in Christ; salvation (et al) something ONLY metaphorical?

Well, lookie here!... now TL-C is posting that:

"djc49": you are ***one of the damned*** (to the Great Tribulation & The GREATEST TRIBULATION: Which Is The Eternal Lake Of Fire) if you do NOT hold to or believe the LITERAL interpretation of The Authorized Holy Bible-Scriptures *****and/or***** The LITERAL interpretation of The Authorized Historic Writings Of The Apostolic Pre/Post-Nicene Apologists of The Pre-Tribulation/Millennial RAPTURE!

TL-C DOES put "Church Fathers" writings on par with Scriptures!!!

Yes, you "missed something." (but that's beside the point)
Perhaps I wasn't plain enough in my ONE question to TL-C. Well, here it is AGAIN:

IS IT BIBLICAL TO STATE that the bodily resurrection [1Thess 4:16] of all the dead in Christ is "the first resurrection?"

I'm NOT confused over whether or not it will be a bodily resurrection, rather, ALL I WANT TO KNOW FROM THE DISPIES is: Can this resurrection be rightly called "the first resurrection?"

NO ONE wants to give me a straight answer! A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice!

Now as for you not knowing of a resurrection that wasn't bodily, you better check out Eph 2:6 where it says: "And HATH raised us up together"
The believer's UNION WITH CHRIST has us spiritually resurrected with Him at our new-birth/conversion! If you are "in Christ," you have been raised with Christ.

Of course, since I do not buy into pre-trib/pre-mill Dispyism, I'm one of the damned -- according to TL-C. Not having the "right" eschatology is tantamount to being LOST and reprobate -- according to TL-C.
_

*Robert* | North Carolina --

Thanks for that hyperlink on Rev 19-22!