Victor wrote:
Why, pray tell, would we be instructed to pray, "Thy kingdom come," if the kingdom is already here and fulfilled?

The Kingdom HAS ALREADY "broken into" this present evil age. 2000 years ago, Jesus inaugurated it! However, it is NOT YET fully realized/fulfilled!

Now,... Look at these several passages for some light on the subject:
THE KINGDOM ...
"is at hand" - Mt 10:7, Mk 1:15
"is come nigh unto you" - Lk 10:9
"is come UPON you" - Lk 11:20
"is within you" - Lk 17:21
is "not far" - Mk 12:34
"is NOT of this world" - Jn 18:36
"is come unto you" - Mt 12:28
"cometh NOT with observation" - Lk 17:20
"is NOT meat and drink" - Rm 14:17

Some standing with Jesus WILL NOT TASTE DEATH UNTIL THEY SEE the Kingdom (come with power) - Mt 16:28, Mk 9:1, Lk 9:27

Also:
We have [already] been translated into the kingdom! - Col 1:13

(This is good):
If "flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom" [1 Cor 15:50] then what are MORTAL, NATURAL MEN DOING walking into the Millennial Kingdom after they've come through the Great Tribulation alive???

Stringfellow wrote:
att:GG.....I neglected to ask which catholic church are you defending?the one in Rome now or the one in exile?
Michael Dimond
Biography:
Brother Michael Dimond is well known in the traditional Catholic world. He has been a Traditional Catholic Benedictine Monk for 14 years, and is one of world's foremost experts on the changes that have occurred in the Catholic world since Vatican II. He and his monastery specialize in the study of how this post-Vatican II counterfeit Catholic Church contradicts Catholic doctrine and fulfills prophecy. He is also the author of a recent book entitled Padre Pio: A Catholic Priest who worked miracles and bore the wounds of Jesus Christ on his Body, and the tapes, magazines and books produced by his monastery which have been distributed in the hundreds of thousands.
[URL=http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/]]]http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/[/URL]

The beauty of the Mosaic Covenant is that it kept the descendants of Abraham-Jacob (national Israel) as ONE, set-apart people. If there were no Mosaic Covenant, the Jews might have been scattered among the heathen soon after their exodus from Eygpt. God, in His wisdom, isolated the Jews, kept them "united," so that they would accomplish His ultimate goal: through them, bring God's Messiah into the world with a **WRITTEN RECORD** of tons of promises, hundreds of prophecies, many "TYPES" and "SHADOWS" (of Christ) established throughout their 1500-year Jewish history PROVING that Christ was indeed THE ONE!

God necessarily had the OT Covenant fail because it had a weakness: the Jews themselves. ONLY the TRUE SON could fulfill & keep ALL the Law. No mere fallen man could. If the Jews COULD HAVE kept the whole Law perfectly, they wouldn't need a Messiah, would they.

Candle Lit wrote:
So, you are saying that these are mutually exclusive covenants
National Israel fails
Spiritual Israel wins
And, the reason God (Who knew they would fail) would give these conditions to Israel in the first place would be?

John UK wrote:
#1 What about the tens of thousands of devils, which are not mentioned here, and who are equally powerful spirits, being fallen angels alongside the devil?
#2 If Satan is literally prevented from deceiving "the nations", does that mean that a "totally depraved man", who is incapable of spiritual discernment, has now the capacity to comprehend spiritual things?
#3 If No, what effect on the world do you think the binding of Satan actually has?
#4 If tens of thousands of devils are still roaming the earth, what difference does the binding of Satan have?

#2 If we had to be strictly literal then Satan would still be able to deceive those people groups which were NOT nations -- like clans, tribes, gypsies, ethnic people groups, etc.

#3 If we had to be strictly literal then we'd have to say that the world would be without the deceivings of that old serpent, which is the Devil, AND Satan. Hmm. Sounds like there might be TWO of them!

Candle Lit wrote:
YOUR PROBLEM, DJ, is that that you take the Bible, verse by verse, rather than taking it as a whole. You miss the big picture. [... ...]

God's covenental promises to national Israel were irrevocable because they were with Abraham, [... ...] NOT the people, and the covenant that God made was with Himself

"MY PROBLEM" is that I have a REAL hard time taking seriously and entering into debate with someone who doesn't know the difference between the Abrahamic Covenant [unilateral & irrevocable] and the Mosaic Covenant [bilateral & conditional]. On top of that, she forgets that I was talking EXCLUSIVELY about -- and responding to -- the question concerning the blessings & cursings of Deuteronomy 28 [again, bilateral, conditional, and for national Israel ONLY]! ........ But I'll let that slide.

Now, ... Anyone who conflates the two OT Covenants (Abrahamic & Mosaic) has VERY SERIOUS interpretive problems!

Furthermore, the promises made to Abraham were to him and his ***seed*** NOT seeds! Read Galatians 3 & 4 ...
and buy a few vowels.

_____

Because these were ALL under the OT Covenant, the Church -- the new, fulfilled Israel of God [Galatians 6:16] -- does NOT take any of these for itself for we have "a BETTER Covenant, which was established upon better promises." [Hebrews 8:6]

Therefore, the conundrum put forth by pre-trib/pre-mill Dispies to Amills about the Church claiming the blessings but not the curses found in Deuteronomy is a "red herring" and an imaginary, contrived "problem." It's simple: they simply do not apply; neither the specific blessings for obedience nor the corresponding curses for disobedience unto the Law of Moses. For we are not under the Law, but under Grace. [Romans 6:14]

Jack Jarvis wrote:
that's a lie-plain and simple,and I think even you know it
I've read back through this topic,and it's been destroyed,but it's still used by you as propaganda
why do you keep repeating untruths?
and I notice a very important question remains unanswered
if you claim the blessings of Israel,how do you get away with dumping the curses on the jews?
let's get an answer-no more Hoekema Hokum Amill comedy

Some interesting questions that should confound the pre-trib/pre-mill Dispies:

· Will the Gospel still be preached by those who were professing-Christians only?

· If their preaching of the Gospel is truly believed, will these new "Christians" be saved? And will these new converts be a part of the Body of Christ?

· Because the "Church Age" has ended, is the Gospel still in effect?

· Because the "Church Age" has ended, will there be no more members of the "Bride of Christ?"

· Has the "fullness of the Gentiles" been completed as per Rom 11:25? If so, does this mean that now, during the Great Tribulation, ONLY Jews can be saved?

· Are those Gentiles who are saved after the Rapture (even those saved during the "Millennium") a part of national Israel since the Church is a thing of the past?

· Will Scofield Reference Bibles and Ryrie Study Bibles be collectors items?

· WHO exactly will do the preaching during the Trib since the Church has been taken away and what form of Gospel will they preach?

Candle Lit wrote:
Animals do not sin, but some do know "right from wrong."

You can train a dog to do almost anything WITHOUT him having any pangs of conscience. Or perhaps YOUR dog is so ethical that he would never allow you to train him to do something against his moral code! You could probably easily train a dog to STEAL the next door neighbor's newspaper out of his driveway without your dog having much guilt about it. Of course, after a while, all his pent up accumulated guilt and shame will see him calling a psychoanalyst after it "got to him" and he thought about it for some time.

Trained animals sense and respond to their master's displeasure and exhibit what their silly masters interpret as "shame" or "guilt."

The whole notion of animals knowing "right from wrong" is utter nonsense.

Animals with consciences?
Animals "hard-wired" with a moral code or ethic?
Animals differentiating between right and wrong?

Since when has any animal/mammal (other than Man) been made in the image and likeness of God and tasted the FORBIDDEN fruit?

If all this folderol is [cough] true, then an animal can go AGAINST his moral code and ......... SIN! Huh? Perhaps those animals who DO sin will then need a "kinsman redeemer" -- a member of it's own species to "save them."

This whole thing is insane and absurd!

Knowing right from wrong presupposes a standard to be adhered to.

As far as I can see, this whole thing about animals having moral codes of conduct is merely another attempt to put animals on equal footing with Man. Another attempt to blur the distinction between Man and the rest of the creatures. Another attempt to show that Man isn't all that different than chimps, dolphins, or elephants. Instead of these evolutionary nincompoops dragging down man, they're attempting to level the playing field between Man and animal by going in the back door -- building the animals up!

Candle Lit wrote:
Question: How will we be priests in God's Kingdom? Priests are mediators

Psa 107:22
And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.
Psa 116:17
I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD.

Christ, of course, is the sacrifice we offer. ALL our priestly work points directly to HIM alone. Our sacrifice also includes our bodies as per Romans 12:1.

Obviously, your wooden, literal understanding of The Kingdom has the SAME quality as that of the Jews who rejected Jesus Christ when He first came and could only fathom a kingdom which was earthly. Well, that's what a stubborn, wooden, literal interpretation of Scripture will drive you to: the SAME place as those carnally-minded Jews who crucified Christ.

Here's something to chew on:

GK wrote:
yeah-I've read that before-couldn't stop laughing

Candle Lit wrote:
So, the Bible says, "there will be a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth."
Good enough 4 me!

But they DON'T.

You just will NOT find it said that: "Christ will reign ON EARTH for a 1000 years." Rather, it is stated that:

(v4) "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" [NO "on earth"]
(v6) "but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." [NO "on earth"]

But as for me, I'll let the NT both interpret AND fulfill the Old.

I read in John 7:37,38 Jesus crying out: "If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink. He that believeth on me, AS THE SCRIPTURE HATH SAID, 'out of His belly shall flow RIVERS OF LIVING WATER.' "
IOW, Jesus Himself is declaring that He is the source of that spiritual river of living water to which Ezekiel alludes.

The passage in Ezekiel therefore does NOT refer to some future changes in geography with a literal river that magically increases as it flows, but points directly to Jesus Christ Himself -- Living waters with their SOURCE at the house (temple) of Our Lord. Living waters flowing from His altar (place of sacrifice: His Cross). Living waters flowing out and increasing as it goes bringing LIFE to everything that was formerly dead: the "Sea of Jews" (the Dead Sea) as well as the "Sea of Gentiles" (the Great or Mediterranean Sea). Christ, the Living water, makes CLEAN both Jew and Gentile. It's all imagery pointing out spiritual truths -- not geography!
_____

Isaiah 11:6-8 pictures various creatures which were formerly antagonistic towards each other (predator vs. prey; strong vs. weak) living in total peace ... in the "Shalom of God." It's a **PICTURE** of the Restoration of All Things; the New heaven and the New earth; the "AGE TO COME;" the Consummation of Christ's Kingdom -- the Kingdom of God FULLY realized AFTER the 2nd Advent & FINAL Judgement (one event).

You see, this Kingdom of God was ushered in by Jesus Christ at His 1st Advent! His Kingdom is essentially a spiritual one and is presently in the form of His Church. Through Christ, the "AGE TO COME" has BROKEN IN on this present evil age (the fallen world age). We enjoy a taste of this "peaceable kingdom" of Isa 11:6-8 NOW as His Church which is composed of various "creatures" who would yet be antagonistic towards one another if that "little boy" had not led them.

We would NEVER interpret the following verse literally:
"For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a THOUSAND hills." [Ps 50:10]
Why not?
Because it's POETRY -- that's the genre!
Certainly ALL cattle belong to the Lord. A THOUSAND here represents the idea of: "however many there are" or "all."

Much is the same case with the HIGHLY symbolic and metaphorical language found in the apocalyptic literature known as: The Revelation.

Taking these 2 genres of Biblical literature literally will find you shortly in Bible Disneyland -- with Jack Van Impe.

"Israel," in the context which we find it, refers to Jews (of course), and "Gentiles" are non-Jews (of course).
Throughout Romans 11, Paul refers to the Jews as "Israel" (vv. 2,7,25,26,).
_