So you are saying the true church was not around before Rome, or that they were swept in together with Rome. I don't believe history supports that thought. What constitutes a true church? Is it possible for the true church to be in error? If it is, then is it not the TRUE church any longer, but an apostasized church. And if it did become apostasized, then would Jesus not have lied when saying the gates (leagal system) of hell shall not prevail against it? Here you would have a time period from the early church, to a point where the church was absent on planet earth, and that never happened. The church was in existance before, DURING, and after Rome; they persecuted the Church!

Sounds pretty physical to me. Bu I am no theologian.

One more thing - when one believes they can loose their salvation, there needs to be something to prove they have it, hence, the "gifts". But the egyptian magicians copied all but one of the signs that Moses did. So were they of God? NO! And satan can do signs and wonders today. AND, the antichrist will come with signs and wonders. So, if you can be duped by Benny Hinn snd the like, who's to say you won't fall prey to the Antichrist? If you're still here, that is.

It's that simple. BUT, they need to define worship. Worship is not just music, which is how most people define it. But Abraham took Issac up to the mountain "to worship".
I have head the deffinition of worship meaning anything that consists of time, energy, and money. this would include tithing and giving, soul-wining, and even singing and music. But anything that is in the flesh can not be worship. So, it is deeper than just a theological deffinition.

God Bless and keep it up!

There are some doctrines that can be forever settled, like redemtion through the blood of Jesus. But how God performs that, there are many thoughts taken from Scripture. Face it, no one is going to change anyone elses mind on their position, because it is all PRIDE. We all want to be right in our position, which puffs us up. I am not a Calvinist, nor am I an Arminian. I just try to be teachable. I have changed my position on things many times, and sometimes vascilate back and forth on issues, and this too can be Pride. These posts I believe achieve little for the cause of Christ. There is a world going to Hell, and Calvinist or not, we were told by Jesus to go into all the World and Preach the gospel to every creature. weather they believe is not my responsibility, I just need to go.
I think the bigger issue is personal seperation and the view the world has taken in of Christians due to their behavior.

What is misunderstood, which may be just a simple communication problem, is that I believe the Bible when it says no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, which is by the Holy Spirit, who came into the word to convict men of SIN! But the debate lies in WHO does God draw? Some say the ELECT, and others say all who respond to the revelation of God in them and around them. My friend in a Missionary in Kenya, and he tells me ho these natives, who have never heard the name Jesus (he is way out in the bush near Sudan), pray to "god" to help them before they go and raid a near-by village. They know there is a God, but they just don't know who He is. But their response to that light is why God called my friend, and many other, to that place. Now, when some hear who that light is, by the preaching of the Word, many reject it, because they love their sin. And as for the picture of God's elect, Israel, God always made room for the Stranger to be saved. And many, like Rahab, were.

Oh yeh, a while back someone wrote the Baptists were not around during the Reformation. They were, but under a different name. And they carried the same beliefs, and were likewise persecuted and martyred for their faith, including the Bible position of baptism AFTER salvation, thus rejecting pedo-baptism. If the Church existed BEFORE Rome, then what was the Reformation. If Rome was the Church, then Jesus failed in preventing the gates of Hell prevailing against it; because I do not believe Rome is changing, or can change. Can anyone give examples of Calvin's position (seriously) before the Reformation? Not including "The Bible". Something historical, or extrabiblical. Because someone has posted how important history is.

How can this mean the Gospel when not all of the world has heard it? That would make this passage incorrect, and a lie. AND, please note verse 12, in context...But as many as RECEIVED him...
To receive something, there must be a choice, for the opposite of receive is to reject. Again - you destroy the simplicity of Christ and worship Calvin.

I could rant for some time, but I must go.